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Ms RL.....you said \"Mr. Sincere, you forgot about the men who polk holes with a pin in a brand new condom still wrapped.Mr Sincere :No RL......I didnt forget about men who poke holes in a condom.  My post was  about choicless fathers.   Usually men who purposely poke holes in a condom is a selfish male who is probably in a relationship with a woman and plans on raising the child and staying with the woman.  But what were dealing with is a problem,  where women are choosing to get pregnant and the result of that puts the child at risk because the father interests of the man has not been established.   What your talking about doesnt have the same impact, because the interest of the man is to have the child.   However,   I will say this .....deception is wrong no matter who is doing it.RL :\"First of all, when a man lays down with a woman regardless of what birth control she tells him she\'s on he should protect himself anyway, there are BC for men, you know.\" Mr Sincere :RL yes I do know?  Did you read the last part of my first post or did you ignore what I said?  I believe I \"covered\" that.RL :\"Now if a woman decides to have a baby against his decision not to, I feel she shouldn\'t bother him for support and raise her child on her own and explain to the child being that the man was not ready, she decided to have him anyway.(my opinion)\"Mr Sincere: See RL thats part of the problem this society is afflicted with.    People deciding to have a child without the input of the other person is wrong.   The other thing that concerns me is the one track mindset that as long as a woman doesnt bother the man for support it\'s acceptable to have a child under those circumstances.   But I submit......that is a very narrow minded perspective for any adult to make on a childs behalf.    Thats why Im saying,  the child is put at risk, because the selfish mother decides the fate of the child by deception and dishonesty.   I think that creates a potential problem for the child.    Telling the child that the man wasnt ready is not the only lesson a child is subject to learn here.   Children also pick up the lesson that mommy was a selfish conniving , manipulator who wasnt woman enough to have a child without being dishonest.    If the man is not ready or even wants a child.....A woman isnt supposed to go ahead and have a child anyway , just because she wants one.   RL :\"Stop blamming the women for kids with no dads cause it can be a womans or mans fault. we all tend put a little faith in our partners and end up REGRETTING it later, sometimes.\"Mr Sincere :RL.....Why shouldnt we blame those women for deceptively getting pregnant without the mans consent?    There is no need to have regrets.....women have the power to conceive and carry a child , therefore they should be even more conscientious when it comes to protecting the welfare of a childs interests.  A man can come or go,   but ultimately she is going to have to raise that child without the man if necessary.    But why do it deceptively?   If a woman is purposely getting pregnant by deceptive means she should be blamed for initiating the risk of the child having a father but not having a daddy.      Maybe if more understanding was put into this issue..( ONE ISSUE AT A TIME ) ,  problems in our children could be better understood and probably better managed.  

Your right, I miss read your post.  All your looking at is the manipulation on women so I take back my post cause I was referring to if a woman got pregnant not by lying but by accident and had the child anyway without his consent.

Simple solution. Don\'t have sex with any one you wouldn\'t possibly want to father/mother a child with.

My, my, this is a very difficult one.  Far too many variables however, I do believe, if your thoughts as a man or a woman, are I DON\'T WANT CHILDREN.  Then you need to think with you head and not your genitals and hormones.  We all know the different situations to where both sides can be conniving.  So why not take precautions and handle the protection yourself.Now, I feel for the men that have fallen prey to the women.  Unfortunately, there are many of them.  However if you had enough common sense and fear that you needed to ask a woman if she was on the pill or whatever then you needed to have just put one on.  I know, the feeling right.  I wish that people could really see and understand the impact that not having one or the other parent can be.  Children don\'t express their deep inner feelings until they are far past childhood then it is too late.  So you will never really know the feelings deep inside that little mind.  Now that tired line of I don\'t want anything from the father, I can do it on my own.  That is all well and cool if you are talking about the money aspect of it.  But a child doesn\'t live on money they live and prosper off LOVE, ATTENTION, and GENIUNE CARING from BOTH parents.  Everything and anything more than that is just a bonus.  So these tired ass people who take their children and run thinking that this has no impact on the child or for that matter the father are just plain ignorant.  Did they ever think about the other players in the game of life?  Did they think that just because they are willing to provide for the child that this doesn\'t affect a man, knowing he has a child, somewhere?  Did they ever stop to think that this child might want someone other than just them in the picture?  I have seen the impact and there is truly an impact.  Now before I get chewed up for these comments.  I am in the situation of raising my child.  I don\'t ask for support because I can provide a roof, food, and clothing, not to mention toys.  But I am in no way capable of giving that love that a father provides, no matter how hard I try.  Now I will be willing to move both heaven and earth to try to keep the rode for my child\'s relationship to her father clean.  So far I haven\'t had to do anything.  He has been there on his own.  He does what he wants.  He loves her the way he wants.  He spends the time he wants.  And this is fine with me because this is who he is and that is who she will need to know.  If I simply had to answer the question posed \"Does the child have a choice of who his or her father is?\".  I would have to say NO, never have and never will.  Just the way life is.

\"S\"  there is a lot to cover in your post.....you\'ve shared a lot.   But judging by your response.....I\'m not sure you got the gist of where I\'m coming from.   Anyway......I\'ll address the following :You said :  There are men out here with seven and eight kids a piece by different women. Your argument seems to support them. ( support them how??? ) I wonder if he told each one of these women, \"Uh, I\'m not ready to be a father.\"Mr Sincere :   I dont know if he did or didnt. But,  I wonder if that same male with several kids by different women informed each woman of his father status before he had sex with them?   I doubt it very much.   So these women are in the same boat as any man who is deceived by a woman.    In fact your example is something we can address.   How do you think each woman would feel , who finds out that her man was cheating on her with several women and has children with each of them,  or he failed to report how many children he had ,  would they brush this off as something they should just accept and they should stop complaining like you mentioned men would be doing?   No,  I dont think so.....because I can imagine the reaction the average woman would have being deceived by some man who had several children by different women and now she has one by him too.    Wouldnt that woman be more concerned for how he is going to relate to her and their child?   How would you feel if you were trapped in that kind of scenario?   Would you now suggest that women use time wisely instead of spending it worrying and harping on how selfish her baby\'s pappa was and how he so-called tricked her by being dishonest about how many children he had?    I think women would love to know that information ahead of time.....I guess since they didnt find out, until it was too late ,  just like the men,  they should just make the best of it, huh?I dont know you,   but I\'m willing to bet you would be highly pissed at any man deceiving you.     My point is......\"where you stand on the issue depends on where you sit\"   If your coming from a female perspective or male perspective ,  deception is not something we just shrug our shoulders to and say \"oh well,  I\'ll just accept it.....\"  

MS-the only thing I disagree with you on what you said is this, this does not relate to men only. Men are just as tricky as women and have been the first to rave about wanting children with that woman and then walk out once the child he wanted so badly has been conceived.Simply, everyone must watch out for their own good,  male or female. I don\'t necessarily believe trust is the issue more so responsibility. Meaning, the only person that is responsible for your well being is you, to put that in the hands of someone else is to give them control. And we all know we can\'t control the action of other people.But for the most part, we are saying the same thing.

Pooh,  It did get the gist of what I was conveying.   And what we need to learn from that is how we can reduce the reality of children not having both parents in their lives.  What I\'m addressing is something from a male perspective which gives some insight to why some males behave the way they do,  when they are deceived.   I\'m also addressing something women have some power to control if they want to avoid the impact that affects the man and then the child.    It seems  some people dont really understand deeply how some males react to their feelings of being deceived and how that reaction can have a negative impact on a relationship and a childs welfare all at the same time.  I do know this....that if we were talking about issues concerning females reacting in a dysfunctional manner because they were deceived....all of the compassion, understanding and support would not be spared for those women. My point is..( not to you Pooh ,  because were on a similar page )...men have feelings and want and need understanding and compassion too.   If a man is deceived....he might manifest his hurt or pain in a manner that is not productive.  Not productive to the relationship or the childs welfare.   And thats a reality we can alter by understanding the role each of us plays in our ignorance.    A man can and should do his part,  but she has to see what her role is when she deceives.