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\"S\"  I believe that understanding is an esoteric concept.   Meaning ,  only few are capable of understanding something that is a mystery to them.   But the first step to understanding is being open to understanding someones perspective and feelings that are different than yours.   That means your never going to understand what is being conveyed if , your only going to be using a biased perspective to help with that understanding.       If you re-read how you articulated your inquiry,   you\'ll see what I mean.Thats why I addressed the issue about generalizing how men behave,  first.   Any man your in a relationship with would not open up to you and tell you how he feels ,  especially if he detects bias and an underlying resentment towards males in general while your trying to understand him.Having said that.....your intent may not have been to male bash.....but if you look at it closely thats exactly what it appears to do.    Thats why when I post.....even if I am refering to females,  I usually direct my focus towards my experience and my observations,  which is limited to just those women who exhibit what I\'m describing, not females as a whole.   Thats why I understand female/male behavior to a great extent,  because I can see more pieces of the pie than a biased perspective would.In answer to your inquiry though......I believe I explained the problem,  that is.... those men are selfish......I also might be right in adding, they probably lack home training too.   How do I know?......I see the same thing with the many males I supervise on my job.   Perhaps the root of this starts with who failed to give them their foundation in man training.  \"Mr. Sincere,You seem to be wise in your ways. May I ask if you were always this way? I.E. different from the men I described in my original post.\"Mr sincere : Thats an interesting question \"S\"......I couldnt have always been this way, now could I?.   My first start was quality home training.....but that was only a foundation....After that , I made the personal decision to be the kind of man I wanted to be.    Having high values and standards makes it difficult for me to comprehend why anybody would put up with the crap you described in them men,  unless there was something else that attracted them in the first place.I say,  why try to understand? ,  you know their behavior,  avoid it,  by avoiding them.

P-\"in english composition we\'re taught that we aren\'t supposed to state \"in my opinion\" This may be true of composition but in interpersonal communication it isn\'t. And think of how much time you save by using \"I feel\" instead of qualifying later, that is was simply your opinion, not a statement of earthly fact.But you are correct, her presentation can be constued as very general.

\"Gentlemen, SITM did not make a generalization\"Simon....Generalizations are formed when you include a whole group in your opinion,  when in reality the opinion only applies to certain parts in that group.  In this case, only certain men.     In order to see the generalization in her opinion,  you have to follow her idea or concept of men in general.  Remember , she didnt say some men,  she just said \"men\".      Thats where the generalization is.   In other words , you have to look beyond the words and apprehend the message.  Another thing.....it doesnt matter if she says \"I feel\" or not.......it\'s already understood that the opinion is coming from her feelings???   Her saying that this is how she feels is not where the focus should be to determine if she is generalizing men......it\'s in the message that is being conveyed.It doesnt matter if she says I feel or just states her opinion,  her understanding of men is derived from a general idea of men.  No matter how you slice it......it\'s still the same,  it is a generalization.      How can we measure if it is a generalization of men?  By asking a simple question. \"Do ALL men think that they aren\'t to be held accountable for some of the same things women are expected to be held accountable for.?\"    No!!!   not all men feel that way.And thats why her concept of men is a generalization of men that is unreliable when you apply the test, because it doesnt fit ALL men.   If she had said some men in her statement,   then her perspective of men would seem like she is aware that her opinion is not applicable to ALL men.Now that we got that out the way :\"But for some reason, men automatically feel if a woman is interested in him, all he has to do is make love to her and she\'ll be satisfied.\"What about this statement Simon......is that not a generalization of men?    Here,  she is not even saying I feel......like you pointed out for the other statement.  Now, using our measuring tool again,  is it true ALL men feel that way?  NO!!!   Thats why it is a generalization to assume men automatically feel that way.    And remember,  generalizations are formed when you include a whole group in your opinion,  when in reality the opinion only applies to certain parts in that group. I hope this issue a little clearer now.

As stated by Mr. Sincere:\"How can we measure if it is a generalization of men? By asking a simple question. \"Do ALL men think that they aren\'t to be held accountable for some of the same things women are expected to be held accountable for.?\" No!!! not all men feel that way.\"Fine!  Not all men feel that way!  Fine!  Fine!  Fine!And after you constantly and repeatedly and constantly and repeatedly made this point, why didn\'t you go on and deal with the matter at hand?  You said that if men act this particular way I described, they are selfish.  Now that I\'m out of the relationship and can look objectively at what went wrong I see just the opposite.  He was not selfish at all.  He gave willingly of his time with me, he gave willingly of his cash, he gave willingly of his loving, and he gave willingly of his conversation.  After he cheated, I gave him another chance, which does not say I chose the wrong type of man as you men on this post seem to enjoy saying as if that makes it so.  Married couples have infedelity issues all the time and all of them don\'t split.  CAN YALL UNDERSTAND THAT?My man chose to cheat on me again, and that\'s when I fell out of love with him.  We were beyond repair even though neither of us knew it.  While I was doing my solitary time getting emotionally and financially back together, I was constantly hearing \"it\'s hard to find a good man,\" coming from women, and \"women prefer dogs to good men,\" coming from men.Now when I ask how do men think, all I can read is all this crap about generalizing!!!Okay, now one guy said it would be common sense for a man to do housework.  No, it\'s not.  Women have complained openly about this forever!  Are you all saying that all these women are choosing the wrong man because he won\'t do housework?  Not doing housework is no reason to leave your man.  Leaving the toilet seat up is no reason to leave your man.Just because a man is doing all the things I described in my original post, doesn\'t mean his woman is just going to up and leave him like some of the shallow women some of you described in your replies.  I do not pick the wrong men.  But I am open to trying to understand them.  A good man is a man who is willing to meet his girl halfway in the relationship regardless to his past beliefs and habits.  That\'s how I am.  That\'s what I\'m looking for. Not some high and mighty self-proclaimed expert on men/women relationships.The men on this post claim to all be quote, unquote, good men, but I beg to differ.  You wouldn\'t get very far at all with your attacking a female who just because YOU THOUGHT she was comparing you to her ex man who YOU THINK was the wrong man for her justbecause she casually mentioned that she had been in a bad relationship, that now she hasn\'t got a clue about what she wants.IYONEL:\"You need to ask yourself, where do you find such losers?\"A loser could be considered someone like yourself, depends on the woman.Banjo:\"I at least try to pick women who meet my standards, and if I make a mistake and one does not measure up to what I\'m looking for,I appologyze for my mistake and make my exit.\"Oh, is that so?  So what makes you any different from the men I described above?  The apology??Banjo:\"I have dificulty understanding people who think like you. It is so obvious why you have so many problem with men. You pick problem men and you stay with them.\"I don\'t have a doubt about that.  You actually THINK just because I asked a question and described a few examples, I continuously pick problem men?  I live in a big city and I know a lot of people, isn\'t it possible some of these examples came from people I know, issues I\'ve read, conversations I\'ve overheard?What?  You men needed grammar clarification for that too?  However, due to the responses I have received, I FEEL, I have been enlightened on how the quote, unquote, good men THINK.They seem to THINK that that they know everything and you know nothing.  They seem to THINK grammar and political correctness is more important than the matter at hand. They seem to THINK just because a woman\'s been in one bad relationship, she should toss her given right of PREFERENCES to the wind and get with one of them whether she wants to or not.  They seem to THINK that they are better than their brothers who have made a few mistakes, yet still have the unconditional love of their women.They also seem to THINK that a woman is doomed to \"problem-men itis\" just because she didn\'t apologize for making a mistake and make her exit according to the quote, unquote, good men\'s time frame.  You are all right on one thing, I will continue to make mistakes.  That\'s life.  And I choose to be responsible for my choices, as always.  But, as a beautiful, loving, Black woman, I choose not to be alone for the rest of my life.  I intend to continue to ask men (all men) what they think so that I can better understand, (even though someone said there is no understanding men or women--no, I beg to differ) how my Black men think and how we can relate better to one another.  \"It\'s all in the men you select.\"   My selection of men are just fine, thank you.  Just because I don\'t knock him down the very first time he says no to me doesn\'t mean he\'s not the one.In closing, I obviously did not generalize as you all used Mr. Sincere\'s bandwagon to jump on and harp on that.  If I were one to generalize, I wouldn\'t give a **** what any of you all thought, now would I?  If I were generalizing, this post would have never happened.  But Mr. Sincere jumped defensive, as usual, and the rest followed.  And after you all did a song and dance about how all men don\'t think alike.I rest my case.

Of course we cannot completely understand how a man thinks or what he wants unless we ask him. That\'s what the purpose of these boards are. I don\'t recall anyone trying to speak for the entire male or female population. I also don\'t think that anyone is taking your opinion and letting it speak for the entire species. It\'s impossible and very unrealistic.Perhaps if we stop copying and pasting only the negative points, we can reach some sort of understanding.When I ask my uncles for advice, I don\'t come at them like, \"Y\'all @sses are trifling! Why do men do such and such?\" I come at them with an open mind and a closed mouth. I try to understand where they are coming from before judging them. If I don\'t agree with something, I tell them why. If I don\'t understand something, I ask my uncles to explain themselves. I\'ve actually learned some things about men from them and vice versa. The key to having successful dialogue with a topic such as this one: be respectful,open-minded, and don\'t blame any one person for anything.

Purple says,  \"Mr. Sincere, I hear you but if her question bothered you and some of the other men on her so much, then why did you respond to her?You\'re so quick to \'tell someone about themselves\' rather than deal with the question at hand.\"Mr Sincere :Purple,  the problem here is you are exaggerating what you are seeing on the board.  You need to re-read my first post to S2.   I never acted like I was personally bothered by her inquiry.  I tried to answer the woman,  my way. I basically said she was making faulty assumptions of men in general based on an misunderstanding that not all men operate  the way she presented.   I tried to answer her based on what I felt she needed to know in order to understand men better.   I felt,  she wouldnt get very far with her understanding, when it was obvious she had a misconception of how males are supposed to behave especially using the examples that she gave.   And Purple,  I can be very quick to tell some one about themselves.  You know why?  I was blessed to have a keen eye for detail,   and I can pick out a potential problem a mile away.    And thats why I respond the way I do.   To find out what your real agenda is.   Funny thing,  it doesnt take long to expose the true motivation and focus of a person. You wanna know a quick clue that gave her away?   I was thinking of sharing it here,  but It\'s best I keep to myself.....so I can expose some more anger fueled posters out there.Moving right along,    the reason for her not knowing how men think , is because she has a block which prevents her from having an objective way of using reason.   So recognizing that.....I know a person has to be receptive first before I\'m going to waste my time trying to offer assistance.   And if you were objective about what you read,  you would see that she is the one who blew this out of proportion first.   She got feedback from me and a couple other brothers.   Now.....you tell me, what advice could we have given her that would have been any different than any friend, brother or uncle would have given her?    The problem is she is using the men here to vent her frustration.   In fact , you dont even need men in order to get feedback.   She can ask women the same questions.....because many things she inquired about is not gender specific.  And because it isnt gender specific.....the answer is easy to provide.The answer for why people act that way is because of selfishness.But she couldnt accept what was provided.  You see Purple.....you are so busy defending this woman , that you missed the common sense in the answers she got.   I dont think you even know this lady,  yet you are getting yourself personally involved.   What are you getting out of this or trying to accomplish?  And you are pointing out that only the men are being defensive, but you are not objective enough to see that she is being defensive?    Moreover,  you cant see that this person has an axe to grind too?    If you wanna get technical, she hasnt said anything that impresses me as someone who is trying to gain an understanding of men.From what I read,  she thinks she has all the answers.   My question to you is......if she was bothered by the answers she got or they werent adequate,  why didnt she just move on and seek feedback elsewhere?  I\'ll tell you why.....she was looking for trouble and she found it.     Thats the bottom line.

\"Oh MS! Stop acting like you have a small penis.Move on please. Just answer the DA#N question. SITM seeks your all knowing advice.It seems like you would want to get up on your elevated podium and take your stand.Speak on the topic or just be quiet. Really. Stop debating a point that really, is unimportant. But of course, this is just my 2 cents.\"Mr Sincere :For someone who always goes on and on about name calling and insulting people.   Simon,  I\'m really disappointed in you coming off like that.And another thing ,  you place entirely too much value on your opinions.    To say it\'s worth two cents???,  is kinda pushing it.    You lost your \"cents\" by coming off as if you were ignorant.   Now , are you going to tell on yourself again to Ms Heartbeat about the board losing posters.   ( LOL )