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Okay say a woman has three male friends. She\'s known them each over 5 yrs and she knows them well. She\'s one of those women who can \"hang out with the guys\" and not see it as anything else.
Okay, well one weekend they plan to get together and play some poker.  They have lots of beer, some cocktails, coolers at the gathering.  She gets drunk with them and passes out later on that night.  She is wearing short casual shorts (not particularly provocative looking but just shorter and for comfort) and a tight sweat shirt which she deems as her \"fave shirt\" and did not have in mind to turn on any of her friends.
What happens is she wakes up and finds that her vagina and anus are store. She doesn\'t quite remember what happened last night expect for playing poker, but because she was so drunk she fails to remember how she passed out on the couch.  She also notices that her shorts are on backwards.  She wonders if she did this herself the night before or her friends have actually done something sexual with her. She also wonders if she initiated the sex.  She doesn\'t know whether to be pissed, in denial about what her -friends- could have done to her, or blaming herself for possibly (in her mind) for initiating sex and getting drunk.
The facts in this scenario are she didn\'t intitate anything, she simply got drunk and passed out and someone DID sexually violate her while she was drunk.  In fact all three guys did.  One was hesistant while the event happened, but went along with it anyway.
The question is, has this woman been raped or not?
Is this her fault? or the men\'s or both?
If you are a woman, would you see anything wrong with putting yourself in a situation like this thinking you could trust your -friends-?  How would you handle this situation?
As a male, what are your view?  Could you honestly be the type of man who would do something to a woman if drunk like this? What if you were the guy who was hesitant, would you do anything about the other two guys. Is it the man\'s responsibility to make sure to keep his dyck in his pants if a woman is drunk or a woman\'s in terms of not dressing a certain way (even if she isn\'t looking for anything sexual) and not engaging in alcoholic consumption?
How do you view a situation like this? Is it reasonable for a woman to assume she can do stuff like this with male friends and be safe? Can men be trusted at all in situations like this or do most men lack the will do control themselves in a situation like this objectively speaking?

Mindkandy

quote:Originally posted by vuitre:
 I would\'ve told her I was taking her home, and would\'ve done so as to prevent anything like that from happening.
Because that is what a real friend would do.
One woman. Three guys.. Known them each for 5 years, how could this happen. And WHY?
You have a right to feel safe amongst those you know, even though harm is often brought to us by just those same people.
In a nutshell she was raped, because she did not give her consent to what took place.
The three guys are DOGS. And they ain\'t no friends of anybody\'s but the other DOGS in the gutter.
There is NO excuse for any man to not be able to control himself.. NO EXCUSE FULL STOP. NONE..
Even if she was dressed in what they felt was provocative clothing.. So what, her money, her cloths, her choice, her body.. None of their d@mn business.
Although she has a responsibility to look after herself, she thought that she was amongst friends.
Maybe a condom full of burning oil strapped onto them would be too good a punishment, I don\'t want to talk anymore about this because ALL MEN who behave like this just P!$$ me to F**K off.
[This message has been edited by EF MAX (edited 09-06-2001).]

What kind of question is that? If she didnt agree to have sex she was raped? End of story. You can dress the way you want and play cards with fifty men if you want but that doesnt give them the right to violate you. This is the type of things that lets me know we are still a very animalistic society. This is pathetic.

The woman was raped. There is no question in my mind about that. Can\'t give consent when you\'re incoheirent like that.....
But the most troubling aspect is that these guys were her \"brothers\". With some people, just knowing them for a year or so makes them family.  And after 5 years, these guys were like blood to her. She trusted them and they knew it. This was an extreme violation. And I can\'t fault her at all in the situation. Even if she were butt-T-naked with her legs spread wide open.....which can possibly happen if you get drunk enough, \'cause you\'ve lost total control of your mind, body and facilities....these guys were more than wrong, there\'s absolutely NO justification for this violation.
As family, they were supposed to cover her up and let her sleep, or catch a cab for her and carry her up to her bed UNMOLESTED even if she were semi-nude, naked, or whatever. Anything more than a kiss on the forehead would have been foul, let alone invading and occupying her very private personal space.

Keba and I.R., I am not saying or even implying that she deserved what she got or wearing tight/short clothes should be motivation for anyone to molest or rape anyone!!!  Neither did I intend for her to be portrayed as a \"loose\" woman, because according to the description, and without adding in anything, that did not seem to be the case.  I tried to carefully word my post so that I would not be misconstrued, but I guess I didn\'t do such a good job.
In the original post, she wasn\'t sure if she had initiated the sex or not... all she knew is that she was sore and didn\'t remember what happened.  I think the dynamics of the evening cannot be lumped with those that rape strangers and that type.  Since they were all \"friends\" (and I use that term VERY loosely!), they could have gotten familiar with each other, kissed, etc., and let one thing lead to another.  Mindkandy\'s post did not indicate that there were bruises or anything and being sore would be a natural thing after strenuous or repeated sex.  She is just not sure if she was raped or not.
My point was that being female, we have to be on our guard more than men in such situations, unfortunately.  That she hadn\'t been given a date rape drug, that she had no bruises, that she didn\'t remember if she had asked for it (sex) or not, just points to her state of inebriation.  I have been in a situation where a former girlfriend of mine and I were attending a party and she drank entirely too much.  When she drinks, she gets incredibly flirty and touchy-touchy with men.  Two guys picked up on her state of mind and quickly moved in for a night of fun.  I intercepted and insisted that she go home with me right then and there.  They protested, she told me to leave her the f* alone.... and was pissed when I grabbed her azz and forced her out.  The next morning, she claimed, she didn\'t remember much of anything and defintely not our confrontation.  Had she stayed and accepted the \"ride\" that was being offered by the guys, she most certainly would have awakened sore the next morning, even though she was the aggressor that night with the men.
It was wrong of the men to take advantage of her condition... ESPECIALLY if they were friends, and ESPECIALLY if they, too, were not drunk as well.
If they, too, were drunk, she was being flirtatious, and inviting their advances... which of them would have the wherewithall to say enough is enough?  It was just an ugly, unfortunate situation... one I\'m sure all parties would rather move past.  And just as I told that girlfriend of mine... if you can\'t handle your liquor, put the friggin drink down... the girl in Mindkandy\'s scenario needed someone to tell her that too ... apparently[This message has been edited by MzSheel (edited 09-07-2001).]

Sheel, no, I didn\'t think you were implying that \"she got what she deserved.\"  I didn\'t think that at all.  Sorry you misunderstood my post. What I did get from your post was that she made herself vulnerable for such an event to take place based on her knowing that she couldn\'t handle her liquor from times passed.  My position was that \"she was amongst friends,\" and in an environment that should have been safe even though she had \"one too many.\"  I think we all are \"reading\" more or less into this scenario based on our own perceptions and experiences without knowing all or more of the details.
Something that has me a bit puzzled though is this statement...\"One was hesitant while the event happened, but went along with it anyway.\"
Mindkandy, if your friend was so out of it and doesn\'t know whether or not if she initiated the act, then how does she know one of the guys was hesitant?

The whole point of it all is, we really don\'t know if it was consentual or not.  I don\'t see enough evidence in the original statement that would prove/disprove consent.  We all have different methods of measuring friendship; so we really can\'t use that in determining what actually happened.  
I think it is a very good post, provocative enough to get some people to think when they plan to go out and drink.  Therein, I think, lies the value of this post.

Thanks for pointing that out Starchild.  Also, I’d like to point out that just because she didn\'t have any bruises, doesn\'t mean she initiated the act.  Her \"passing out\" would eliminate any need for force.  Of course, this is only speculation on my part.  Just pointing that out Sheel, this is not intended to be a dig in you.